Women and the Church
Last Thursday Lambert received a letter from the Diaconate Board telling her that she was dismissed from her position because the board had adopted the scriptural qualifications for Sunday school teachers. In short, this prohibits women from teaching men.
Although very popular in a lot of churches, I would like to see some New Testament scriptural support of a lot of church activities, including Sunday school, but that is really beside the point here. Apparently, Mrs. Lambert was on the deacon board as well.
Last month, Lambert and two others were kicked off the Diaconate Board. They were told they were being removed for attendance issues.
But apparently, if you are married to the pastor, the same rules of men holding the offices of the church do not apply to you.
The letter was signed, "Thank you for your anticipated cooperation. Very truly yours, Kendra LaBouf." Kendra is the wife of City Council Member and Pastor Tim LaBouf.
And then residents who have no stake nor a clue that we do not live in a theocracy.
"And she is a woman, and when we women fought for equal rights for a long time, since 1929 hasn't it been?
And why is this a big deal to anyone? Because the pastor is a government official, and government officials, in their personal lives, must apply the political correctness standards that they must follow for what they perceive to be political expediency.
Now, I must criticize this pastor since he is being somewhat inconsistent. He is applying Paul's charge selectively. Clerk, Treasurer, choir or music director are all leadership roles in the church. The clerk is given the authority to document the workings of the church and write letters of recommendation. Given the church must approve of the work of the clerk, nevertheless the clerk is still an authority, as these duties are delegated to the clerk. The treasurer is likewise the authority on the finances of the church, and people look to the music director for leadership in the song service. Yet these positions in many churches, even Baptist churches, are held by women. If this pastor were consistent in his conviction of Paul's writing in regards to leadership positions being held by men, then he would be sure that all positions were filled by men.
Now, I do not want to seem too judgemental, because all I know of this church, pastor, or situation is what I have read in this new story. But given that this woman has served on the deacon board, and that Paul also charged Timothy that a deacon should be the husband of one wife, if these people ordained this woman as a deacon, they are an unorderly church under New Testament standards, and if they did not ordain her, then they are still out of order by allowing one not ordained as a deacon to serve in that capacity. (The ordination of deacons was set forth in the 6th chapter of Acts.)
Lambert said she feels there's more to her dismissal than the scriptual qualifications.
Perhaps she is right. I am not so sure that this church is scripturally qualified to begin with.
posted by Badbeans | 12:27 PM
9 Comments:
So, are you saying that a woman, who is not teaching or leading the men of the church, have no right in other positions in the church?
Is that in your bible?
Well, anonymous, of course everyone has their place in the church. If by positions you mean the places that are set aside as formal leadership positions or offices of the church, then the answer is yes, my Bible does back that up.
Women of the church have an obligation to lead and teach the younger women how a Christian woman should behave herself, both inside and outside the church.
Does this mean that women are any less important in the church than men? Absolutely not. Be careful not to confuse the natural workings of the church with the spiritual. God in His infinite wisdom gave us instruction for the visible church, but the spiritual church, made manifest through prayer and supplication, has no hierarchy but that God is master, and through the blood of His Son Jesus are we saved by His Grace.
Well I guess it's all the interpretation of ones bible.
Because as I see it, Paul was doing the talking here, not God. Paul was directing Timothy on some issues in his (Tim's) church.
"I" do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. "I" is not God. "I" is Paul.
What role do you think that Phoebe and Priscilla had in the early church? I bet they had roles that were leadership based. Paul said that Phoebe had been a great help to many people including himself.
I think that a man should preach the Gospel and teach men. I also think it's fine for a woman to lead women. Men should be the deacons of the church and not us women.
But as far as other positions in the church go, God does not say that a woman cannot hold them. If He (God) does, please show us the passages.
You said it was in your bible, back it up.
Susie,
While you are correct in stating that the "I" is indeed Paul, the facts that don't change are the roles of women in the leadership positions in the church.
Badbeans is correct in his original post about what those leadership positions are and who should be fulfilling them.
As for the roles of Phoebe and Priscilla, I doubt they were leaderships roles; as that would have been contradictory in what Paul believed. I would assume the roles these women had were along the lines of helping prepare meals, arranging for lodging and meeting the non-leadership roles of the early church.
The key word here is 'leadership'. The bible has been consistent from Genesis forward concerning men and their leadership roles.
Sorry Badbeans, I know your point in this post was not about women and their role in church but about the inconsistency of the pastor in the story.
Often people look for the "Thou Shalt Not" verses for back up to assertions that they do not necessarily agree with. You will not find everything spelled out word for word, but if you take the whole of the consistent themes of the Bible, you can draw conclusions. In the New Testament, no leadership roles were assigned to women.
Again, this does not diminish the importance of women in the church; Paul says in another place that the ministers of the Gospel are servants to the people, and who is greater, the servant or the master? It is not about power, but responsibility. Each person has their responsibility and place in the church, and we should seek to fill them though we know we are unworthy to even hold them.
From Genesis on waynedawg?
I seem to remember a certain Deborah. Deborah was a judge in Israel was she not? Deborah was also a prophetess. Deb was in a leadership role; bigtime. She even had a song named for her.
I think that being a judge is a pretty darn good example of having leadership over men.
God, when He wants to, selects women to lead as well.
Susie -
Using Deborah as a lone example of a leadership role over men is akin to picking out one verse of Scripture to support a church-slitting doctrine.
Yes, God can do whatever He pleases to furthur His will. I don't put God in a box that fits my agenda; but neither should you or anyone else.
I don't know the specifics on why Deborah was made a judge, I'll have to study the Scriptures to get a better understanding of why she was in that position.
My first comment stills stands though; there is a consistent theme of leadership roles in the Bible from Genesis forward. It was ordained that way by God. Badbeans hit the nail on the head and said that, 'It is not about power, but responsibility.' This cannot be a more true statement.
This issue is not a battle of the sexes for power. It is a matter of responsibility and the delegation of it from God.
Again, we are talking about New Testament church. The Old Testament was full of shadows and types of the New Testament.
One must consider the qualities of these women, as women in the OT are shadows and types of the New Testament church. Deborah, Ester, Ruth, Sarah, Rachel, Rebekah, and others are types and shadows of the New Testament church, as the harlots and women of less virtue are types and shadows of the false church. Men, such as Abraham and Moses, are types representing God. David, Jacob, and others are Christ types.
However, in the New Testament, backed by the Old Testament shadows, responsibility for the leadership of the visible church is given to men. Think about it this way. The church is often referred to in the NT as the bride of Christ. Christ is the head of the church, leading the spiritual church. However, He bore the sins of the church, whom He redeemed by his blood, imputed to Him. Christ was not guilty himself, but He took that responsibility. The church, in turn, owes her loyalty and faithfulness to Christ.
Likewise, as is the case with marriage, men have the responsibility to see that his wife and family are cared for, and the wife and family owe their loyalty and faithfulness to their husband as the head of their home.
And why, if as by the example of Christ men head their homes, should they then not be expected to be responsible for the visible church. As at home, a wife has her influence and responsibility, and is just as important as her husband, just in a different sense. So it is with the church.
The fallacy of those who believe the more liberal viewpoint that you advocated in your last post is that they view a leadership position in the church as a position of power and lordship. There are those who do use these positions as such, and they are unscripturally qualified to hold those offices. Offices of the church are a grave responsibility, not to be taken lightly, and not to be assigned to just anyone. Those that are qualified will know the graveness of the responsibility and will perform willingly, but with a great burden and Godly sorrow.
badbaeans: Sunday School is not Biblical either.
Seperation of children by grades is a Darwinian concept.
Is this woman teaching adults or children? The article does not make it clear.
Her removal sounds political , not scriptural. Why didn't the minister sign it or members of the diaconate.
Post a Comment
<< Home